Spoonie entrepreneurship with Emma Reilly

Hey spoonies, it's James from Chronic Insights.

Emma Reilly is back.

We're gonna have a catch up with her.

It's been a while since we last spoke.

Last episode she was on, but that was pre-recorded from five years ago, so we've got a lot to catch up on.

There's a big, big update from my Symptom Diary app coming.

I'll include some details of that at the end of the episode, but until then, we'll just get straight to our conversation with Emma.

Hi, James.

Hi, Emma.

How are you doing?

I'm pretty good, thank you very much.

Five years older since the last time we did this, but yeah, it's been quite a ride in the last five years.

Really, five years?

Yeah.

I think so.

I know it was pre-COVID.

I think 2019-ish.

Yeah, so it must have been before 2020, so yeah, I think it might be right.

It was, yeah, it was because we booked out a nice little recording studio and... We did, yes.

We were both tech entrepreneurs.

Yes, we're very grateful for Tim Lazinski who did that for us.

He's got a great little podcast studio in Newcastle.

And yeah I think just as you grow older just time starts to mean less and less it's like I can't believe five years has gone past so quickly.

I don't know about you but I look back probably because of 2020 and the Covid like that two-year period of lockdown and then coming out of lockdown and back into lockdown it's kind of blurred into this kind of big long year um so it's kind of like time is a bit distorted since since 2020 um it just

feels like we're just kind of playing playing kind of playing catch up with ourselves from 2020 march to to now.

What was what was lockdown like for you then?

It was strange.

It was weird because obviously I'd grown up with a really severe social anxiety disorder so I kind of isolated myself for a long, long time.

So I felt quite comfortable going into lockdown.

It kind of felt a little bit like old times but it was also very triggering because I didn't want to go back to that person that I was, you know, in my 20s who used to hide away.

And, you know, being forced into that was a bit of a weird situation, but I dealt better than I thought I would.

And obviously at the time I had a business, which it's a strange thing to say, but actually the COVID pandemic was quite a good thing for us because as a mental health tech startup, everybody suddenly needed mental health support.

So we got inundated with things to try and help people through the COVID pandemic.

Um, but yeah, I think, I think like anybody at the time it was, it was, it was hard.

Um, my mum was quite poorly at the time, so there was, there was a lot of stress at home, but yeah, we just, we just, we kind of just got through it, to be honest, I think like most people.

Um, Yeah.

So for, so for people, people listening, I don't think we talked about it on the last episode when we, we met at a business accelerator.

Um, yes.

Which was designed for people who were just kind of solo entrepreneurs wanting to start up a business and the idea is you'll come together.

Lots of people all wanting to start a business, learn from people who are putting on the course like lectures and tutorials and workshops and stuff.

Yeah and I remember that's- Best of pictures.

Pardon?

An investor pitches as well.

Oh, the pitches, yes.

Yeah.

Speed pitching.

Yeah.

That was fun.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That was, that was pretty intense though, wasn't it?

That was a whole, a whole day I think of us doing kind of five minute speed pitching with different angel investors.

Which is difficult when you, when you're chronically ill. Yeah definitely.

The whole thing is actually really difficult.

I struggled a lot of the time with it but I remember when like the first emails were going around saying like well welcome to the course you know before we actually arrived and met each other.

I remember emailing back to like a reply all saying something like Hi, I'm James.

Excited to join, but just so that you know, I have chronic pain.

I have this autoimmune condition that causes me arthritis in my back and my spine and stuff.

So if I don't go out socializing with you after the day is finished, if I just go home or if I just, you know, don't feel, don't seem like If I just see him off a bit, that's why.

I remember you emailing back saying, me too.

I remember that.

Yeah.

That was, I just got to say, that was great.

I really, that was just such a relief to know that there was somebody else.

I remember that because I think I was in a more uncomfortable place of actually telling people like you know upfront this is what what's happening in my life and this is why I might behave a certain way but when you posted that actually it gave me a lot of confidence to be like okay I'm not the only

one and it's okay for me to for me to kind of be open I think because obviously my condition was related to a very personal female yeah Condition that especially then you didn't really talk about so it was quite a nerve-wracking thing for me especially you know so I've got endometriosis and that's a

condition that affects women of childbearing age And just briefly, it's kind of where the lining of the uterus or your monthly period, that same tissue grows on other parts of the body.

So it causes lots of kind of chronic pain and inflammation and causes organs to stick together and all kinds of things.

So I was a little bit kind of nervous about Talking about that in person because it's such a personal thing you know we don't really talk about periods in our society so it's for me to say that I've got this kind of disorder that's associated with that it was quite nerve-wracking but I think seeing

your kind of little message just gave me that little bit of confidence to kind of embrace it and I knew that when we'd meet we'd have this kind of instant connection because we totally got Where the other person was coming from, which obviously it's the one one of the great things about it's one of

the few sort of benefits of being chronically ill is this relationship we have with other people who are chronically ill. It's like you instantly have this bond, I think.

Yeah.

No matter who you are, where you come from or, you know, whatever's going on in your life, you share this experience.

And it's just yeah, it's just such a relief.

And yeah no and imagine you know we talked last time a lot about your social anxiety so that must have just added to the difficulty talking about it I guess.

Yeah, I think, I mean, looking back, I think this was what, 2018, I think, when we did that accelerator.

And I look back at myself then, I'm a very different person now to what I was then.

I think I wasn't very confident.

I mean, I'd worked probably 10 years as a freelancer, so I was very used to working on my own, going from kind of project to project.

So suddenly to be in We had a room every day with I think there was what 20 of us, 30 of us.

All different kinds of backgrounds, all different extroverts, introverts.

It was quite a nerve-wracking thing and I think that in itself kind of triggers the pain response more as well so I think especially the early days I do remember being like kind of going home and feeling a lot more pain than I would normally feel and I think it was probably the anxiety of

maneuvering all these new relationships because I was obviously very very shy growing up and that label is a really hard label to shake off Especially from my own kind of perspective, I will often say I'm quite shy, but actually I'm not shy, I'm not anymore.

I'm quite confident with people, but what I am is quiet, which is a completely different thing.

So yeah, I think I put a lot of pressure on myself during that accelerator to try and be more extrovert, to try and get involved more, try and forget about my own struggles.

And, you know, that was difficult times and I think it really helped to see you because obviously I would remember you'd go off to do stretches and you would, you know, if you needed to take some time out you totally did and you were so unapologetic about it and I'd never seen that before because I

was very kind of lumped like I've got a condition I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry that I've got this condition.

I'm so sorry that I can't socialize.

I'm so sorry that I can't go out tonight.

And I think seeing you completely the opposite of that was actually really helpful to me.

Oh, that's amazing to hear that because I never really thought about it that way or realised that.

That's fantastic.

Because I identify a lot with being quiet as well.

I mean, I feel like I am quite introverted, but also Because, you know, I just, I don't mind being on my own.

I spend a lot of time on my own.

I mean, I think it's difficult to know how much of that is just being chronically ill and how much is just, that's just naturally what I do anyway.

I'm not really sure.

Um, but yeah, I, I think I am usually the quiet person in the room.

I don't, I don't, I tend not to talk very much.

Over time I was in some, you know, years ago I think I was the same as what you were experiencing just find it difficult to talk to people about my illness and my pain and I think it just got to a point where

I mean maybe this is another good thing about chronic illness is it just it makes you just you get to a point where you you've either got a you either sort of crumble under the weight The name of the meeting

Just tell people, you know, I'm having a shit day or I'm in a lot of pain and I need to go and, and just not worry about how that, how people will be surprised by that or, you know, have odd reactions because they're just not used to it or they don't know what to say.

It's just, it's not important.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think that's something I'm really trying to focus on now.

I think that it's something I've had to really force myself to try and let go a little bit.

I think during that time, particularly with the startup, because we were in such a difficult position anyway, we were two females creating a startup and trying to get funding through that time was a really, really difficult demoralizing process.

So for me, having a condition that Others may look down as a weakness.

I really tried hard to bury it and I put a lot of pressure on myself to Keep going, even though I knew physically that I wasn't at my best.

And I think, you know, I know in the end, so the startup closed in like 2021, I was burnt out as burnt out could be.

I mean, I was literally on the floor and I think a lot of that was because I just, I pushed myself.

I mean, I remember the, I think it was July 2021, 2021, Or 2020 I think, July 2020. 2020. I'd had surgery for endometriosis.

Now, in ordinary circumstances you'd have two weeks off work to recover, a minimum of two weeks off work to recover.

Yeah, I mean, you were a doctor.

It's quite a traumatic experience.

Yeah.

But in this particular occasion, I think I had one day off.

That's crazy.

And I worked from bed.

It's just crazy.

And I think because there's that pressure to, as a co-founder, to be constantly present, constantly on the ball.

And I just didn't give myself.

And I think I remember like from that point, I think I physically just spiralled from that point onwards because I was just so, so tired.

I think it can sort of spiral like that, can't it?

Because I found that when I used to work in IT, I basically had a full-time job.

I ended up quitting because it just took its toll in a big way and I found that it was It just steadily, very gradually, things just got worse and worse and worse.

Like I had a bad day and then I would be stressed out because it was affecting my work and then I was having to sort of make up for that and then that would Like make me feel even worse because I was stressing out so much and it just it just went in in like constant downward spirals and then I would

have to just take loads of time off sick and then just to completely just collapse in bed repair yeah come back and then it was just the whole thing repeating again um So yeah it sounds like that's what happened just like times 10 because it was just yeah it was just uh you were basically trying to

start up a business with somebody else who wasn't chronically ill and maybe didn't understand like that's it didn't have that experience And I think anybody who doesn't have a chronic illness of any type doesn't truly understand.

I think you can empathise.

So I've just quit my job.

I've been working for the last three years as a product manager.

My company that I work for was fantastic.

I've got no fault there.

But obviously the demands of the job need somebody there to be kind of present in the office day after day.

And combined with that with being kind of a part-time carer for my mum, I find myself where I literally felt like I was losing a piece of myself getting home every night because I was so tired.

And there'd be days where I'd wake up and I thought, I am in so much pain here, I feel nauseous.

It's like a flu-y kind of feeling.

Yeah, yeah.

And the guilt of having to kind of ring up and say I'm sick today because I think... Yes, right!

That's so weird, isn't it?

Yeah, you start to think... I got that as well.

Like, I feel guilty doing that and I shouldn't, but like, why?

Why do we do that?

It's crazy.

I think our society is just set up to be kind of the best you can be.

Like, you go and you Go hard and you do everything that you can do and you have this amazing career and you're stepping on all these little different ladders to kind of climb up there.

But the reality is that not all of us are physically able to kind of do those things and I think the guilt of that, like I think we really put it on ourselves that it's our fault that we can't do that.

Do you ever feel like maybe they don't believe you or maybe they don't realize like how bad it is?

Does that make it worse?

Because that for me I think that was a big thing.

I was always whenever I phoned up my boss and I was like I'm just too much pain today.

I'm tired.

Whatever it was I can't come in.

There was always something in the Like my boss was a great guy.

He was really accommodating but there's just a part of my brain going maybe he just thinks I just want a day off and I'm just using my illness as an excuse.

Maybe that's in the back of his head.

You

never know whether it's your voice or if it's the truth so then you start to kind of become like obsessed about it trying to and then you'll what i was finding is that we're going to work and then looking for clues of Does he like to think I'm doing my job properly?

Does he have any kind of feelings about this?

Like a forensic analysis of what's actually what they're thinking.

That's it.

So in my case, I just go to work.

I would literally just go to work and I'd be sitting with a heat pack plugged in under my desk.

Because the crazy thing is that was actually seemed easier.

Then the guilt and the stress of saying, look, honestly, I'm just not able to work today.

That's it.

That's it.

And you know, nine times out of 10, I probably could have worked quite easily from bed.

But then again, it's that guilt that everybody else is going into the office.

You need to make the same effort.

And I think in my case, it probably didn't help that I was a lot older than a lot of the people in my office, probably by a good 10 years.

So I kind of felt like I was the old person in the room who had all of these kind of ailments and was, you know, really, you know, like, you know, a bit of a whinger, you know, getting the sick note label.

But that was completely me, like my company was brilliant, my boss was brilliant, he was really understanding.

I think a lot of it was just my own kind of anxiety and I guess the things that we pick up on through our lives, through society, that adds to that kind of burden.

I think most people are sort of more understanding than maybe we think.

Yeah, maybe like, at least, you know, if you're in a good work environment, most people are actually quite sympathetic to the idea of being in pain.

It's just like a human thing, isn't it?

Yeah, I think for most people.

Yeah, I mean, I think I think what kind of tip to the balance for me was So the last couple of years my health has deteriorated and I seem to be kind of collecting conditions like stamp collecting.

I'm having lots of tests done to kind of find out what's the cause of this and it was kind of a case of like I'm going in, I'm going to this appointment for this disease, I'm going to that appointment for this condition, I've got these new symptoms today and I just thought I sound like An absolute

hypochondriac.

What people must think, you know, because I think people who have lots of conditions, they do tend to be kind of the butt of the jokes because we do have this kind of sick note mentality of like, you know, people are basically trying to get out of doing their job and take the easy route or people

are just wanting to not work so they can claim benefits and all that.

But I really want to work.

I love work.

I'm addicted to work.

I love going in.

I love innovation.

That's my passion.

I love product.

But then there's other side of me.

I've got epilepsy that's just kind of come out of nowhere.

I've developed celiac disease.

I've got other autoimmune conditions that cause all of these other things.

And my body's just not keeping up with my brain, essentially.

Yeah.

It's frustrating for me, but with the added kind of layer of I'm letting other people down through no fault of my own and there's nothing I can do about it, but it's still I'm to blame for this situation.

Yeah.

I mean, this whole work question that we're both struggling with, I think, it's the biggest It's it's it's just it's the biggest problem really like well it's one of the biggest problems it's like how yeah how do we actually go about It's really difficult I know and you know like how do we actually

you know work and have all of these other issues and it's just it's just so hard and and there's no like um there's no guide or manual or there's no no there's no support out there there's no there's no guidance on this I mean part of the reason why I quit was because I wanted a better work-life

balance You know, my mum's got Alzheimer's disease so I was missing out on things that were really important to me like experiences that she was having with my kind of my I've got a 20 month old nephew and you know I'd be at work and they'd message and say oh they've all gone to like Annette Castle

for the day and I'm like these are really like these are memories that I want to kind of cherish because you know she won't be around forever or she won't be the person that she is forever.

So part of the reason why I quit was because I wanted that work-life balance but I also wanted to be able to kind of wake up in the morning and go I just want to turn over and go back to sleep and not have to worry about going into the office today to get stuff done because I'm not used to anybody

in the situation and I just felt like I needed to kind of create a work environment that was based on my physical needs as well as kind of like you know my financial needs So that's kind of what I've done.

But it's difficult because, again, even talking about it on this podcast, there's part of me going, people are going to judge, people are not going to want to work with you because you've got all these conditions and you might be unreliable, which I'm not.

I'm very dedicated to my job.

But it's that little voice in the back of my head is thinking, This is the thing that people who have chronic illnesses and who have lived with it for a long time are probably the best

employees that you could possibly get like in terms of you know resilience and just all all the crap that we go through and that we deal with every day and how we've learned to adapt to those things and how we we just Have built up, I mean, in central like mental fortitude and grit.

People who are chronically ill are like the hardest, grittiest people you will ever meet.

The only problem is it's kind of just difficult to actually put that into action because... When people see the physical first, it's not until you're working with somebody that they can kind of see how resilient you are and how good at problem solving you are and you're good in a kind of a difficult

situation.

Because they want to see the lean, mean, frightening machine at the very beginning and it's hard to kind of get past that.

But if we could like untap, if we could like tap that resource, you know, I just think, I just think of all the, all of the great, you know, ideas and Entrepreneurs that are out there who are disabled who just need a tiny little bit of help.

I mean, I feel like I was very fortunate to find Ignite at the right time, at the time that I was just thinking about this Simpson Diary app.

That's

You know, I could afford those several years where the app just wasn't making any money or not nearly enough and even now it's still just, I'm still just barely about making enough money to even survive on my own.

Like without all of that help and support, I just, I don't, I'm not sure how I would have got to this point.

And I just wonder if the, you know, there should just be a lot more help than if there was just somebody who understood, you know, disability and the problems that you need to work around.

Yeah.

Like you could invest quite a lot of money in all these great ideas that disabled people have but just aren't able to get off the ground because of a disability.

Just, you know, longer term loans, you know, you know, it just takes us long.

We just need more time.

Like, you know, like what we experienced during Ignite, it was so intense.

It was like every day there was this, that and the other, you know, all day.

And I think for both of us, it was, it was too much.

Um, too quickly.

And if it were, if it was just stretched out a bit more, if there's just more time in between just to have, just to have rest days that we needed, I think it would have been a lot more effective.

And I think if, you know, if loans were offered, which were just more favorable, just longer term loans, where you could afford to spend a bit more time getting an idea off the ground before you have to start repaying it.

Yeah I think that's right and I mean when I was poorly for a long time through anxiety I really wanted to start a business but I was on benefits at the time and no bank would have looked at me for a loan to start a business because I'd had no traction and I had no job.

And yet there was no business services that you could go to who were specifically tailored to people who had a disability or a condition, particularly those who were on long-term benefits because of it.

Because it's not that I didn't want to work, I really did want to work but I knew that working for somebody else was just not an option for me at that time.

But my hands were really tired about creating a business that I really wanted to create.

So for me I ended doing design work because I had a computer and I could use Adobe and I could draw and it was pretty decent at creating designs and things like that.

I could just get started straight away.

But, you know, there's so many other things that I really wanted to do that just there's no support for me to do that.

And that's, I think, probably one of the biggest, it's the thing that just got worse as time has gone on.

I think, you know, the way that business support systems are at the moment, there's very few grants available.

There's kind of like, you know, I think even kind of accelerators are kind of losing their funding.

So I really worry about what kind of the next generation of, Disabled and, you know, kind of underrepresented founders.

You've got four minutes left.

Yeah, it's probably about, yeah, we're using Zoom.

The free account, yeah.

And I, yeah, I want to pay for Zoom, so we use the personal thing.

I mean, to be honest, it's, it's, it's, I need a, probably need a break anyway, stand up and stretch, move around.

Yeah.

So let's take a little break.

Yeah.

When we come back, maybe let's talk about, we could, I'm, I'm interested to see what your plan is What plans you might have for what you're going to do next?

Yeah, so am I. Okay, I'll see you soon.

All right, let's chat in a bit.

Are the window cleaners gone?

They have.

You can always guarantee when you need silence that somebody will turn up.

I don't think you might, you probably won't hear it, but there's an angle grinder started in the house next door.

Oh, I can't hear it.

So that's okay.

That's good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's not like an axe murderer hiding in the cupboard or anything like that.

Oh yeah.

And we got windows replaced.

I think I texted you about that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's right.

Yeah.

That's why we couldn't do it last week.

And it's just like, I can't believe how The difference it makes.

Like the ones we had before were just they were double glazed but they were like they must have been they must have been about 30 years old or something like probably the first.

The original windows.

Yeah the original double glazed windows first ones to be produced or something because they like that they were compromised so that there was condensation between the two panes Oh right okay.

No matter how much you clean them it's still there's always like streaks of water condensation and like mist and it just always looked awful so we just didn't even bother cleaning the windows after a while.

Yeah.

And the frames were- So you were in darkness.

Yeah.

Well, we didn't really realize until- Yeah.

About these new windows, it's like, it feels like my eyeballs have been cleaned.

It feels like I can see in high definition now.

Yeah.

It looks really weird.

Crystal-clear ordeal as well.

And it just makes me realise how filthy our old windows were because they were filthy and they were rotting as well.

Literally the frames were roaring.

I'm trying to create this into a little home office because it used to be my COVID home office, but then it's become a bit of a storage room.

So I had to climb over some boxes today.

I thought I can't do that.

So I've cleaned it out.

So this is going to be my new office set up.

So are you excited about maybe trying to start something new?

Excited, terrified, comprehensive.

Because you said, you know, you're the kind of person who's addicted to work and you just, you love entrepreneurship.

I love entrepreneurship.

I love ideas.

Um, I have kind of, well, we'll be consulting for a couple of companies kind of, because I'm really interested in kind of like finding new ideas in, in like businesses that are maybe kind of looking to create additional revenue or to increase their revenue through innovation.

It's what I've kind of done with my previous role.

So that's what I'm kind of focusing on for the near future will be kind of do kind of innovation consultancy and helping businesses grow through additional innovation.

I have got some of the goals in mind.

I bought a laser cutter a few months ago, a big CO2 desktop laser cutter, because I had this kind of AI crisis Because obviously I love AI.

I love using kind of, you know, tools and stuff to create stuff.

But then I was like, I just feel like my creativity is missing out and have this kind of big kind of creative crisis.

So when I bought big desktop laser cutter, so I've been making a few bits and pieces and some of the bits are really good.

So I'm like, well, maybe I should start like a little kind of online Etsy store or something just selling Some of my, some of my designs.

So that's kind of, you know, something, but, um, I think I probably will venture into startups again.

Right.

Got a couple of ideas, but it's such a, it can be quite nerve wracking.

I think, especially kind of coming up off the back of my last startup, it's quite a nerve wracking thing to think about doing another one, but yeah, we'll see.

I especially you've learned a lot though.

Oh yeah tons.

Yeah because I think back up like I was saying before how I don't think I would have made it this far if I didn't have like lots of support and stuff behind me but but actually when I think about it knowing what I know now I could have gotten to where I am now a lot, a lot quicker and with a lot

less pain and actually spending a lot less money as well.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Like, I think like, you know, when I think about Minder, Discover, I think that became like on the face of it, we seemed very successful.

You know, we, we'd won a massive Innovate UK grant in the January, 2020, We were working with some really big clients.

We had the Ministry of Defence come to us and the Royal Air Force.

Even before we had a product, we had a big social housing company, one of the biggest in the UK, came to us and said, we'll pay you so that our staff can build the product with you.

Which is like, you know, probably unheard of really.

You know, we had absolutely nothing to show for what we were kind of wanting to build.

So on the face of it, you know, we looked like we had it all.

And it's a bit of a weird thing for me to look back on.

I think I buried a lot of it because the ending was such a negative experience.

It's one of those things where I have written maybe seven or eight blog posts but never published them because I know that a lot of it was fueled by anger and wanted to almost get my own back.

But I also don't want to put out that negativity.

There are things that happened in that company that will die with that company and I've learned from it and I'll move on.

So it was like a journal then, really?

You were journaling rather than blogging?

Yeah, it was a journal.

It probably, it was something that you needed to write just for yourself?

I think so, yeah.

I think especially in the first couple of years.

So we closed officially, I think it was April 2021, and it was essentially co-founder Fallout that closed it.

And for the first couple of years, I was kind of livid with anger.

It was, it was palpable.

And I, I didn't want to go on the stage and talk about it.

I didn't want to kind of like, you know, people ask me, I would kind of tell them bits and pieces, but I knew that it was coming from a, from a bad place.

And I didn't want to put that out into the world.

I just wanted to kind of like bury it and just go, that was an experience, you've learned a lot from it, you've grown from it.

Now let's just put it away and move forward.

So yeah, I've learned a ton about myself.

I think I'm, well, I've grown so much.

I think when it closed down, I was in such a bad place that I almost had to kind of rebuild myself up from the ground up.

Which has actually been a really good thing because I'm a lot more confident, I'm probably a lot more ballsy than I ever was.

I will really kind of tell you my opinion, which I think was probably one of my biggest weaknesses back then is I didn't say when I was, when something was a bad idea or somebody was behaving in a way that I didn't think was right, I didn't say anything.

Well, I think coming out of that, It's actually changed me for the better, so I'm probably a lot more opinionated than I was back then, but in a good way, in a way that I can actually stand my own ground now.

I don't feel like that kind of meek and timid person that I was.

But obviously like starting, thinking about starting a startup again, it's nervous from the point of, yes, I know having a co-founder is actually a really good thing because you share the burden and you, You know, you need that person to kind of bounce ideas off and you need that person to kind of

almost keep you in check and be accountable.

But I also know the negative side of having a co-founder and I know a lot of startups fail because of co-founder conflict.

But I also know that I know the type of person that I want to have as a co-founder.

I chose my co-founder before and I picked completely like I didn't use the right way to pick somebody to be a co-founder.

I know now how to pick somebody and what kind of person I would look for and what would be kind of complement my skills.

And I know how we should create that relationship in a proper informal way where we both know what each other's doing.

So yeah, there's been some massive learnings and definitely like I've become such a no code.

Addict that I know like now I can build an MVP quite easily.

So no code is like a sort of visual builders for apps basically.

Yeah.

So it's a way of building apps without code.

So one of my favorite is bubble.

Took me a little bit of time to get my head around it.

It's got a bit of a learning curve, but even WordPress, like I've been using WordPress before.

God knows 15 years plus and even that's a no-code tool like you can build so many cool things from that but yeah I kind of realized now that I can build what I need to build to test my idea and to kind of validate it so that it already has given me a big Head start on what we had as MINDOW and we

had didn't really have access to no code tools or didn't really know what they were.

Certainly were not up to the same level as what they are now and really we had no clue how to build what we needed to build so that that was always our biggest problem.

But I think probably for me like one of my key things is like I want to create a sustainable startup.

Like I want something that can bring in income and grow naturally if it had to because investment is such a beast of a thing to do.

We spent most of our kind of three-year journey trying to raise funds and it really did not go on our favor that we were two female founders with no male counterpart and it went against us that we were in a very niche mental health space at the time.

It wasn't a very big thing to be involved in.

So like for me, I'm like, okay, I need to create something that would be completely sustainable where I could be like, I'm happy if I need to just grow it organically and, you know, keep it profitable where I can bring in my own team members and stuff like that.

Obviously not averse to bringing in an investment, but yeah, I kind of, I kind of see that path as being kind of a, a tricky road.

So I want to kind of make myself kind of bit more food, but more startup proof, but more investor proof.

Yeah.

I mean, I, I, I really struggled with this myself.

So like, cause I'm, I'm just solo founder.

It's, it's always just been me basically working on this and that has its disadvantage in it's just me.

It's just me.

Like I've got no one really to, um, There's no one really to talk to about my day to day, what I need to do, what am I doing, what should I be doing, bouncing ideas off somebody.

I can talk to friends and family but it's not the same as having somebody who's actually building a business with you.

I imagine I would get a lot out of that.

But on the flip side, it has a lot of advantages and the advantage is it's just me.

Because I can, I can, I can basically, and it does work quite well for this app because actually the more people you have, if you have multiple people working on an, on an app.

Once it gets to a certain size and complexity I find To change parts of the app is really difficult because what you change has impacts on all the other parts of the app.

So you have to like coordinate really carefully what you're doing, but I don't have that problem.

I can just, I have an idea for a new feature or more, more, more often somebody suggests something like I want this the app.

And I think that's a really great idea.

Let me just work on that.

And I can just completely restructure.

The whole app and how it works just to fit in this one feature and I can do that quite easily just by sitting in this room or in my bed just tapping away at my laptop and I can just nothing wrong with that roll it out and that has massive benefits you know I can just make changes and do stuff and I

don't have to like discuss it with anybody else.

Yeah I think there's a lot of Kind of a predefined set of rules that if you create a tech startup, you've got to find a co-founder, you've got to build a team around you.

You've got to scale fast.

You've got to build fast.

You got to get investment and then you've got to, you know, go from your pre-C to your C to your A to your whatever.

Um, and I, and I think especially after, after, The scope of clothes, I kind of questioned that a lot of like, well, why, why does it have to be that way?

You know, why do you have to scale fast?

Why do you have to get investment?

Why can't you just create a tech business that is kind of self-contained and actually does a really good job for customers, but you don't have to go out and get an investment.

And, you know, I'm sure for a lot of businesses that's, that works great and that's what a lot of people want, but I think if you don't want that, it's.

It should be kind of just a respected route.

I think we know what those reasons are.

Yeah.

Um, I get it.

Whereas, and, but you know, I've managed to get to a point where, like I was saying, I can just about maybe make a living off of this now, but it's taken me, well, what were we saying?

Five years since we actually started, but I could, you know, I probably could have done, done, got here in like two years.

If I just, if I just.

Started coding and doing it and not worrying so much about doing all these other things that, you know, you, you hear about startups doing, pitching investors, pulling all-nighters, you know?

Yeah.

All of this stuff.

Because, you know, I only have, you know, my users who are paying for Chronic Insights is like, it's in the hundreds.

Which to an investor is basically nothing.

It's like nothing.

You've, you've achieved nothing.

But for me, it's like, just because it's just me working on this.

That's, that's huge.

If I can just imagine a hundred people in the room.

You know, all of those people are using the app that I've made.

That's like, that's actually a massive success.

That's really awesome.

It's slow and small and it's like, But that's organic, you know, I've not had to, I mean, I can't afford to pay for advertising or anything like that.

It's just literally people just stumbling across my app.

Yeah.

I think the biggest worry, I think for anybody with that kind of chronic condition is the pressure of having an investor basically means that you kind of don't You're having to explain yourself to somebody else.

Your time is not your own anymore.

Your business is kind of not your own anymore.

And I think that's always the biggest fear for me.

Because although I'm very able to work hard every day, you know, there are times when, you know, things just are out of my control and I've obviously got past experiences of trying to raise and Really some horror stories, to be honest, of trying to raise money.

And I don't think it's any better.

I know they put a lot of effort into raising awareness of female startups and trying to invest more in female startups, but I honestly can't see any change.

I've met a couple of angels fairly recently just through conversation.

There's no way I can see them investing in women, they're men's men.

The first thing I say when I'm going to create a startup of some kind is create a social enterprise or why don't you create a Facebook page instead.

Just the fact that they wouldn't tell men.

But yeah, there was a couple of times when we were raising for discover where we were literally told... So there was one time we were actually invited to pitch at an angel event here in the north and And we were, I think it was probably about five or six entrepreneur teams there.

We were the only females there pitching that day.

We were given 15 minutes, so five minutes to present and they were strict on the five minutes, they were going to tell us there was a hard cut off.

And there was five slides, again, hard five slides, no more.

And there'll be 10 minutes for Q&As.

So my co-founder pitched and it was a pretty good pitch.

We had some, you know, some really good traction.

And at the end of it, the organizer came up to us who was a female and said, next time we'll get you to add another slide to your pitch deck so that you can explain how you know your financials so that the men in the room understand that you know how your numbers work.

And I just looked at her and I'm thinking, how have we got into this situation?

How have we got here?

And you know, you expect better from a female especially, but obviously she knew that we were already at a disadvantage, so she was trying to help us, but it's like... Yeah, I think we walked away.

And I remember the Q&A was just very much like, oh, why don't you become a social enterprise?

Like, have you thought about getting a CEO on board, even though we had a CEO on board already, but what they were saying was, why don't you get a male CEO to join the company?

And yeah, the Q&A was just desperately silent.

And when it came to networking at the end, nobody approached us, like nobody came over to talk to us.

So we went over to them and The other guys who were pitching were getting really intelligent questions like, what's your five-year plan?

How do you plan to expand your team?

You know, really, really kind of good startup questions.

And we were just getting asked really basic stuff like, so, you know, what's your background?

Wherever you come from.

Have you thought about doing an app that does X instead?

We're just sitting there thinking we've got more traction from our start-up than any of these people.

We're working with big, big companies who've actually paid us money and yet we just can't seem to get anybody to be interested in what we're doing.

Obviously, there was always exceptions to that.

We met some really great male investors who were really Interested in us, but we weren't a fit for them, but the fact that we were females made no difference, but... Yeah, the whole investment landscape for women is so poor and I don't think it's probably got any better, probably got harder I think.

So that is again kind of on my kind of horizon of do I really want to go down that path again?

Yeah.

So yeah, there's lots of things that I'm thinking of but I think for me at the minute now is just having some time at home with my mum.

Just being able to kind of enjoy the summer a bit more and work with the people that I'm working with and, you know, maybe take on some of the cool projects.

And also kind of besides my book a little bit more because I've been so busy that I've just my books kind of gone by in this like Your book?

Tell me about this.

I don't know about this.

So when we were doing the scope and obviously like we were trying to build this app, neither of us could code and no code was not a word I'd come across.

Even though I'd used certain tools, I wasn't aware of this thing.

So during COVID, I came across it, this no code movement of people being able to build apps without codes.

And I was like, Oh my God, this is, this is genius.

Like for people like me who, you know, I can code a bit, but I don't love it.

I'm a much more of a designer.

I'm a visual person.

So.

I tried to sit down and learn to code, but I was just, I was, I was bored.

But this being kind of more visual based, I was like, this is amazing.

So I was like, I was building stuff like, you know, just at home, like, uh, really simple tools.

Like I built an epilepsy tracking app for my mom and, um, just like a little skit CRM and stuff like that.

And, uh, yeah, the opportunity came up to.

Basically write a book about no code for people who've got absolutely no experience coding and startups and stuff.

So it took me about a year to write and I did.

So I'd start work at 8.30 till five.

So I would, I would actually start writing about seven.

I get into town really early, right from, from about seven till 8.30. 8.30. And then I'd do another two or three hours in the evening.

So it took about a year to write and then it was published February of this year.

And it became a bestseller on Amazon on day one, which was, which was insane.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

It was crazy.

What's it called?

It's called the no code startup.

The no code startup.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So Emma Reilly.

I actually knocked, um, I think it was Bill Gates.

I've got a screen capture of me in the number one spot.

I think he's dropped down to number three or something.

But yeah, just through, through work and then obviously commitments at home, it's just kind of like gone by.

So I want to do a lot more of the no-code space.

I want to do some like, maybe put on some workshops and stuff like that.

And you know, a lot of people have kind of come to me and said, can you build stuff?

So I'm looking at maybe helping some people out to build out their ideas.

That's brilliant.

It was a tough experience, probably one I'd probably not repeat for a while.

But yeah.

Actually writing the book, you mean?

Yeah, it was hard.

That's what everybody says about writing books.

It's much, much harder than anybody thinks until they actually do it.

The idea, you know, when I thought about writing a book, I thought I'm pretty okay at writing.

You know, I think it would be like, I know what I'm going to talk about.

Like I've got everything like laid out.

I know exactly what I'm saying, but the actual kind of getting down to it, first of all, making the time to do it, but then the self doubt of writing it and thinking I'm like, I'm imposter syndrome was real when I was writing that book, even to this day, I'm like, I feel so unworthy of writing a

book.

And it's out there and I almost kind of like don't want to read it.

In fact, I think yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So here we go.

That's my copy.

Wow.

Hey, that's great.

I don't even want to read it myself.

I'm so nervous to read it because I'm just like imposter syndrome.

I know.

I know what you mean.

I sort of, I did a bit of poetry.

I don't know if I've ever mentioned this.

I remember you told me this a while ago.

Yeah.

Yeah, I can't remember when I actually started.

I think it was long after Ignite I started writing poetry about chronic illness and stuff.

And I wrote enough to put it into a little book and I printed it off.

And it still just sits on a shelf somewhere.

Yeah, I hate the idea of reading it.

I know.

It's so weird as well.

It just feels so cringe like because I like I have the same sort of doubt.

It's like it's probably just rubbish or it probably I just feel like somebody else reading that I almost don't want anybody else to read it.

Yeah, it's really weird.

It's a strange thing.

I mean, I never published this or anything.

It's just something I, you know, I don't think it's, yeah, I just kind of did it.

Well, I was sort of going to, but then I thought I was rereading the poems and I thought, actually, these could be a lot better.

Um, so I got, I got this, I guess I'm just trapped since perfectionistic cycle of just, I'll never be happy with it.

I think that's probably why I haven't read my book because I think in my head I'll be thinking, oh God, I can make this better, but I can't because it's already printed.

But I mean, I've had some really good reviews.

I've had some really excellent feedback.

But the little person in my head is just throwing in a bit of help there.

I'm sure one day I might write something else.

Um, I definitely do when I'm not working full time.

That, that, that was pretty tough, but I've thought about writing a novel.

I've got, I've got, I've got a novel idea.

Were you thinking something, what were you thinking next?

Yeah.

So that's, that's been my, my lifelong goal is to write a novel.

Yeah.

I would actually love to write, I'd love to write kids' novels, to be honest.

Um, it's been like a lifelong goal.

And I've got so many ideas, jot it down, but... So, has this experience of writing your no-code book, has that made you more or less sort of enthusiastic?

Probably more enthusiastic about a novel.

Okay, good.

Like, I know I can do it if I apply myself and I've got that.

Yeah, because you've written a book now, so... Yeah, I think it's different because it's a story.

It's obviously like, it's from your imagination.

Yeah.

When you're writing something very factual, You're just thinking, there's people out there who want to go, you idiots, what are you talking about?

Yeah, that's just my self-doubt.

But I think a story would be quite cool to write.

But then obviously you've got the thing of like, will anybody like it?

Will anybody want to read it?

What if I'm a terrible writer and I do this whole thing about it and I'm so good at it?

It's a new role to find out.

It really sucks, yeah.

But yeah, it's a life goal.

Along with all the other life goals to learn to paint and photography and everything else.

So I'm sure I'll just have to kind of pick one and stick with it.

Because I keep thinking, you know, what do I do after the Chronic Insights app?

But it just, it never seems to end.

I just keep coming up with new things to add, but, um, you know, at some point it's got to go to a point where it's done.

Or maybe I'll just be, just be writing it forever.

Because I love, I'm obviously I'm really engaged with innovation, like things never end.

So, you know, for a fact that.

Because times will change, things will move on, new technologies will come out.

And I'm sure Chronic Insights will adapt to whatever's coming next.

So you're probably never going to be finished until you say you're finished.

Until I say, right, that's, that's it.

I'm moving on, but the app itself will never have an end.

Because I keep thinking, you know, what, what would I do next to, you know, supplement my income?

You know, what's my next business idea.

And one of the ideas was write a book.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because I would like to write about a story about people with chronic pain being like the heroes or the, you know, the, yeah.

The sort of protagonist of the story and how the hell can you be a hero and chronic illness at the same time?

Yeah, I had some ideas.

I keep noting them down in a book.

I'd like to see like a Superman in a wheelchair or something like that, you know, just just Spider-Man with like severe back pain.

I think that would actually be like a really good interesting read.

But then I think I just yeah I wonder if actually the process of writing will be a lot harder than I think it will be and I'm sure it will be.

Yeah I think it's always it was definitely harder than I thought but I think definitely a lot of prep I did a lot of prep and There's a very specific way that you write and pitch a business book so you don't actually write the book before you send it in.

You actually create like more of a pitch and you send the pitch in and then they'll kind of say yes we'll publish this.

As opposed to a novel which you write verse and then send in.

So that was an easier system to pitch something because it was still very business-y.

You break down your chapters and what you'll write about So then you had a really strict framework to follow.

I have done short stories before, because obviously I did a script writing degree at university a long time ago.

I'm fairly good at drafting a story, but yeah, my mind changes so much.

I've just got to get the door.

Hang on.

Yeah, you go for it.

Just a second.

I think we should probably wrap it up because I'm sure you've got like stuff to do.

Yeah so well what we'll do is we can meet again in five years and I'm sure you're like a published novelist and I've probably got like 20 startups on the go because of my ideas but yeah I'm sure we'll still be kicking around with our aches and pains and I'll tell you about this next time.

It's drugs.

Oh, nice.

It's actually, it's actually cannabis.

All right.

Well, that will be an interesting tale for a podcast mark too.

So my new thing is that I've been prescribed it and I get it delivered.

Wow.

Oh, you have to tell me what it's like.

It's pretty good.

Yeah.

Big, long story probably for next time.

Yeah.

Well, I'll look forward to that.

Yeah.

Tell me how it goes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Good.

All right.

This has been awesome.

Yeah.

It's been really good.

Yeah.

We should draw it to close.

Cause yeah, I need to have a real lie down.

I need to get some lunch.

And eat.

Yeah, that would be good as well.

Eat.

It's been lovely to chat with you.

Yeah, you too.

It's been really lovely to catch up.

Yeah.

I've been really looking forward to this.

Yeah, me too.

It's been great.

Thank you, Emma.

No worries.

I'll let you take care James.

See you next time.

See you next time.

Bye.

So that was the lovely Emma Reilly.

Check out her book, it's the No Code Startup, the complete guide to building apps without code available on Amazon now.

It's a great way to get started building apps if you don't have experience with software development.

And speaking of apps, I've got a big update coming for my app, The Symptom Diary, called Chronic Insights, available on the Play Store and the Apple App Store for iOS and Android, which allows you to record your symptoms and 3D drawings of where chronic pain is and stuff like that.

I've got some new features coming out, some improvements to the backup, there's a new 3D summary view, there's new ways of entering times so you can enter when you're entering a time for a reading like pain or headache or you know whatever symptom that you're recording you can now enter the end time

rather than just the duration Which is helpful sometimes if it goes on for a really long time it's much easier to put in it ended like this date or this time rather than it lasted you know three and a half days something like that and various other little improvements.

So if you would like to help me test that or if you'd like to just get a sneak preview of it, please join my Android beta.

You can do that via the Play Store app.

Just go to the Chronic Insights page on the Play Store and look for the button called Join the Beta, I think it is.

It really helps me out.

And of course, as always, if you have any suggestions, comments, bug reports, things you would like added to the app, please just let me know and I might be able to add it in.

Email me at james at chronic insights dot com.

And if you like my app, please do leave a review on the App Store.

That really helps me a lot.

It basically helps me reach more users and get more people downloading and using the app.

And until next time, I'll see you later, Spoonies.

Bye-bye.